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5:13 pm
September 15, 2010
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Tyler
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Post edited 5:14 pm – September 15, 2010 by Tyler
Many years ago a professor in college read an example phrase that sounds weird but it had no grammatical errors. I don't remember why it was brought up, it was in a computer science class. So I need some help explaining or pointing in the right direction for the explanation that it sounds weird.
Example:
The red, big barn
That sounds weird but "the big, red barn" does not. What is the explanation?
edit:
I misspelled liguistics, totally on purpose.
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8:06 pm
September 15, 2010
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Flanders
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There are conventions about the order in which adjectives appear. Not many people know them, and most of us do it automatically, but it still feels weird when they appear out of order. Here's a list (cribbed from Chicago Manual of Syle)
1) Opinion (lovely, useful)
2) Size (big, bitty)
3) Age (ancient, mature)
4) Shape (square, oval)
5) Color (red, burgundy)
6) Origin (American, Koozbanian)
7) Material (wooden, cotton)
8) Purpose (fainting, sun, typing)
For example: the lovely, enormous, relatively new, boxy, chartreuse, Patagonian, cotton sun dress.
That doesn't look quite right to me (and I know that fashion is weird. e.g. "A-line" is a shape, but you wouldn't put it anywhere but right before the word "dress), but that might be due to the fact that you don't usually see eight adjectives lined up in a row like that.
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10:22 am
September 16, 2010
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sheila
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Flanders, that was a cool response.
I couldn't find a good answer from the types of queries I did (looked up phrase ordering via some exploring on wikipedia but none of the pages I found seemed applicable). I decided to email languagehat, who is friendly and didn't seem annoyed with a question out of the blue. He said I could quote him.
I asked:
Please help a curious person out.
[link to this thread]
We have a member wondering why "the red, big barn" sounds weird, but
"the big, red barn" does not. It came up in the context of a cs class
a while back, and he would like to know if there is some sort of
principle to explain the weirdness quality.
Thanks. I hope this letter doesn't annoy you overmuch.
(I always get worried I'm bugging someone who is very busy and doesn't like interruptions whenever I email people out of the blue)
languagehat: Well, the principle is that English adjectives occur in a certain order, as in the Chicago Manual list quoted at your link (size, age, shape, color, etc.), but if your member wants some kind of deeper principle, grounding the order in some basic principle of human psychology, I'm afraid they're out of luck — different languages choose different orders, and it's just one of the many things that have to be learned. But if they want to investigate further, there's a whole book on the subject: Carl Bache's The Order of Premodifying Adjectives in Present-Day English (Odense University Press, 1978).
I'm sorry I couldn't be of more help, but please don't hesitate to ask questions — they never annoy me!
me: A follow up question: why is there an 'it sounds weird' reaction to a phrase? is it because a phrase doesn't match a habit of the majority of people one has been around?
languagehat: Exactly — I couldn't have put it better myself! I spend an awful lot of time trying to convince people that their negative reaction to a word, phrase, or usage they're not familiar with is simply because they're not used to it, and means absolutely nothing about the English language. It's just like hearing the music of a younger generation ("They call that music?!") or eating foreign ("weird") food; at first you don't like it, and then maybe you do, or maybe you don't, but usually people recognize that it's just a matter of taste and habits. With language, though, anything they aren't used to is Bad and Wrong and the people who talk that way are illiterate and… oh, it's all too depressing. I'm glad you have a sensible attitude!
I didn't expect that enthusiastic reaction to my followup.
Based on the familiarity idea, if you look around on wikipedia you can see that different languages have different ordering attributes for things, so I was wondering if a bilingual speaker (based on when they learned a language — much later, or at the same time?) would have an 'off' feeling about an ordering when hearing a phrase in a secondary language that has different ordering properties.
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4:37 pm
September 16, 2010
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Flanders
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Thanks! I do this for a living.
Anyway, grammarians fall into two large groupings: prescriptivists and descriptivists. Prescriptivists see grammar as a set of rules that define "proper" grammar, and tend to be called "grammar scolds" by descriptivists, who see the conventions of our language as arising from how it is used by people generally acknowledged as skilled in its use. That body of people and their works is called "the canon," and its composition is hotly contested. Twain is usually considered in, while the drooling dude who scrawls nasty things about your sister in the bathroom stall is usually considered out. Shakespeare, actually, is a controversial one, because while he is, you know, SHAKESPEARE, his language is kind of archaic, and he uses many words very differently than how they are understood by modern English speakers.
Usually you don't get drawn into this argument unless your job depends on it–for instance, if you're editing the CHICAGO MANUAL OF STYLE, which is widely regarded as the definitive source, mostly because it's organized better than it's closest competitor, the AP Style guide.
Language Log (http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/), is a fantastic and very accessible blog that addresses these matters from a descriptivist viewpoint. The most famous prescriptivist around is George Will, and I will let that fact speak for itself (*cough*DBAG*cough).
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5:42 pm
September 16, 2010
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sheila
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I've got my eye on you now for language questions. You are my new hero. seriously? editing the Chicago Manual of Style? kick ass.
(things given to me by people I have dated include: Chicago Manual of Style, OED)
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6:23 pm
September 16, 2010
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Hljothlegur
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sheila said:
I've got my eye on you now for language questions. You are my new hero. seriously? editing the Chicago Manual of Style? kick ass.
(things given to me by people I have dated include: Chicago Manual of Style, OED)
Damn. That's love. The OED costs like a thousand dollars, if you get the print version.
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6:27 pm
September 16, 2010
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Hljothlegur
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Flanders said:
Thanks! I do this for a living.
1. Difference between "that" and "which."
2. I wanna continue to use the pluralization scheme that went with certain greek or latin words, "aquaria," one "criterion," "stadia," one "medium," two "media." May I?
3. What the hell happened to the word "few"? It feels awful to me that everyone just uses "less" for a set of discrete items? Seriously, who did that to me?
(Yes, when I find out someone is a doctor, I tell them about this pain I've been having in my elbow.)
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6:44 pm
September 16, 2010
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sheila
| | mindsided by Blindsight | |
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Hljothlegur said:
sheila said:
I've got my eye on you now for language questions. You are my new hero. seriously? editing the Chicago Manual of Style? kick ass.
(things given to me by people I have dated include: Chicago Manual of Style, OED)
Damn. That's love. The OED costs like a thousand dollars, if you get the print version.
It's the 4-up version. but paper. yeah.
additional things given to me by people I have dated: at&t unix pc, dec ultra
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6:45 pm
September 16, 2010
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sheila
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I might still have an APA style guide somewhere. they made me get it when I was in school. I tried finding some LaTeX templates based on it and never did.
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7:08 pm
September 16, 2010
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Flanders
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Post edited 7:09 pm – September 16, 2010 by Flanders
sheila said:
I've got my eye on you now for language questions. You are my new hero. seriously? editing the Chicago Manual of Style? kick ass.
(things given to me by people I have dated include: Chicago Manual of Style, OED)
I don't actually work for the CMS. I'm a freelance (read: chronically underemployed) copy editor and proofreader who has to refer to it constantly, and who likes to keep up on the latest usage trends.
Hljothlegur said:
Flanders said:
Thanks! I do this for a living.
1. Difference between "that" and "which."
2. I wanna continue to use the pluralization scheme that went with certain greek or latin words, "aquaria," one "criterion," "stadia," one "medium," two "media." May I?
3. What the hell happened to the word "few"? It feels awful to me that everyone just uses "less" for a set of discrete items? Seriously, who did that to me?
(Yes, when I find out someone is a doctor, I tell them about this pain I've been having in my elbow.)
1) I haven't the first fricking clue, and neither does anyone else. I mean, there are guidelines, but they are routinely violated. It's a matter that is currently in flux, and my guess is, eventually, we'll all just use "which." Or "that."
2) You may do as you wish, but keep in mind it will mark you as the kind of person who would do that sort of thing.
3) In civilized correspondence, the difference between "less" (that is a smaller amount of an undifferentiatable mass, such as "less milk," "less sand," "less fat,") and "fewer" (that is a smaller number of countable things, such as "fewer grains of sand," "fewer killer robots," and "fewer tentacles") is maintained. On the Jerry Springer Show, it is not. I blame Andrew Jackson.
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8:09 pm
September 16, 2010
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Flanders
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Post edited 8:11 pm – September 16, 2010 by Flanders
Seriously, though, here's what CMS has to say about "that" vs. "which:"
5.202
that; which. These are both relative pronouns (see 5.58–62). In polished American prose, that is used restrictively to narrow a category or identify a particular item being talked about {any building that is taller must be outside the state}; which is used nonrestrictively—not to narrow a class or identify a particular item but to add something about an item already identified {alongside the officer trotted a toy poodle, which is hardly a typical type of police dog}. Which should be used restrictively only when it is proceeded by a preposition {the situation in which we find ourselves}. Otherwise it is almost always preceded by a comma, a parenthesis, or a dash. In British English, writers and editors seldom observe the distinction between the two words.
Goddam limeys. Seriously, if that makes sense to you, start applying to grad schools.
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1:03 pm
September 17, 2010
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mtm
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Post edited 1:03 pm – September 17, 2010 by mtm
sheila said:
Based on the familiarity idea, if you look around on wikipedia you can see that different languages have different ordering attributes for things, so I was wondering if a bilingual speaker (based on when they learned a language — much later, or at the same time?) would have an 'off' feeling about an ordering when hearing a phrase in a secondary language that has different ordering properties.
Being bilingual in two very different languages (English and Finnish) I can say that most of the time I (and many others) will spot the phrasing that's "off". I also can usually spot the "off bits" in other language that I'm not completely fluent in (Swedish). But of course it's easier to spot the stuff that's "off" than to produce grammatically correct language yourself. 
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"Pain is inevitable. Suffering is optional."
Haruki Murakami
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1:10 pm
September 17, 2010
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Hljothlegur
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mtm said:
Being bilingual in two very different languages (English and Finnish) I can say that most of the time I (and many others) will spot the phrasing that's "off". I also can usually spot the "off bits" in other language that I'm not completely fluent in (Swedish). But of course it's easier to spot the stuff that's "off" than to produce grammatically correct language yourself.
DOOD! Teach me to say something agreeable in Finnish. Or a mild curseword!
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1:23 pm
September 17, 2010
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mtm
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Hljothlegur said:
mtm said:
Being bilingual in two very different languages (English and Finnish) I can say that most of the time I (and many others) will spot the phrasing that's "off". I also can usually spot the "off bits" in other language that I'm not completely fluent in (Swedish). But of course it's easier to spot the stuff that's "off" than to produce grammatically correct language yourself.
DOOD! Teach me to say something agreeable in Finnish. Or a mild curseword!
I'm trying to think something mild as even the Swedish speaking Finns often curse in Finnish as it sounds harsher Well, "damn" would equal to "hitto" which is very mild indeed. For something agreeable you could try "hauska tutustua" = "nice to meet you". And remember that Finnish is a phonetic language, you say the words as you see them so "hitto" would be said like English "hit" and "tor" (without r) together. I'm not even attempting to write instructions for the other phrase, sorry! 
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"Pain is inevitable. Suffering is optional."
Haruki Murakami
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2:19 pm
September 17, 2010
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sheila
| | mindsided by Blindsight | |
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Hljothlegur said:
mtm said:
Being bilingual in two very different languages (English and Finnish) I can say that most of the time I (and many others) will spot the phrasing that's "off". I also can usually spot the "off bits" in other language that I'm not completely fluent in (Swedish). But of course it's easier to spot the stuff that's "off" than to produce grammatically correct language yourself.
DOOD! Teach me to say something agreeable in Finnish. Or a mild curseword!
and recommend us some books! …but translated.
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2:37 pm
September 17, 2010
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mtm
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sheila said:
and recommend us some books! …but translated.
I'm terrible in Finnish literature considering that I have lived away from the country for a good while but apparently Arto Paasilinna's "The year of the hare" is quite a good read. Many like Tove Jansson's Moomin books, Mika Waltari's historical novels i.e. Sinuhe the Egyptian, Vaino Linna's Under the Northern Star, which is a bit heavy going though as is Aleksis Kivi's Seven brothers. If you like poems perhaps Edith Sodergran would be a good place to start. I'm sure there are plenty of good authors around who have recently published, but I haven't kept up to date on that front. And if you really, really want to delve deeply into the epic tales, then the national epic poem Kalevala is up for grabs, although I have diligently resisted reading it myself…
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"Pain is inevitable. Suffering is optional."
Haruki Murakami
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2:52 pm
September 17, 2010
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Hljothlegur
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mtm said:
I'm trying to think something mild as even the Swedish speaking Finns often curse in Finnish as it sounds harsher Well, "damn" would equal to "hitto" which is very mild indeed. For something agreeable you could try "hauska tutustua" = "nice to meet you". And remember that Finnish is a phonetic language, you say the words as you see them so "hitto" would be said like English "hit" and "tor" (without r) together. I'm not even attempting to write instructions for the other phrase, sorry!
HITto or hitTO – where is the accent?
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7:53 am
September 18, 2010
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mtm
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Hljothlegur said:
HITto or hitTO – where is the accent?
It can be both or said without emphasis on either syllable. If you are frustrated, it would be the first option, if you are getting frustrated it would be the second and if you are just stating the fact, you don't have emphasis on either :) Finnish is fairly monotonous language and the emphasis is used to display e.g. emotions. But I'm not the best person to describe all of this as although it is my first language, I have never officially studied the grammar or the difference to other languages. For example the first time I heard that Finnish does not have a future tense was when a British friend wondered about it when trying to learn the language:)
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"Pain is inevitable. Suffering is optional."
Haruki Murakami
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8:52 am
September 18, 2010
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Hljothlegur
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mtm said:
Hljothlegur said:
HITto or hitTO – where is the accent?
It can be both or said without emphasis on either syllable. If you are frustrated, it would be the first option, if you are getting frustrated it would be the second and if you are just stating the fact, you don't have emphasis on either :) Finnish is fairly monotonous language and the emphasis is used to display e.g. emotions. But I'm not the best person to describe all of this as although it is my first language, I have never officially studied the grammar or the difference to other languages. For example the first time I heard that Finnish does not have a future tense was when a British friend wondered about it when trying to learn the language:)
Now I know you're a-pullin my leg – how does one refer to the future, then? You have to have a time word like "tomorrow" in a sentence?
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9:39 am
September 18, 2010
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sheila
| | mindsided by Blindsight | |
| Moderator
| posts 515 | |
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mtm said:
sheila said:
and recommend us some books! …but translated.
I'm terrible in Finnish literature considering that I have lived away from the country for a good while but apparently Arto Paasilinna's "The year of the hare" is quite a good read. Many like Tove Jansson's Moomin books, Mika Waltari's historical novels i.e. Sinuhe the Egyptian, Vaino Linna's Under the Northern Star, which is a bit heavy going though as is Aleksis Kivi's Seven brothers. If you like poems perhaps Edith Sodergran would be a good place to start. I'm sure there are plenty of good authors around who have recently published, but I haven't kept up to date on that front. And if you really, really want to delve deeply into the epic tales, then the national epic poem Kalevala is up for grabs, although I have diligently resisted reading it myself…
Thanks for the recommendations. Have you read Troll: a love story? That is the name for the English translation.
It seems there is an up and coming Finnish novel to wait for by Hannu Rajaniemi. I saw a comment about The Quantum Thief while browsing metafilter.
logopetria:
MetaFilter's own cstross had a glowing recommendation for Hannu Rajaniemi: "He's Finnish, lives in Scotland, has a PhD in string theory, and — well, if you dropped Greg Egan's hard physics chops into a rebooted Finnish version of Al Reynolds with the writing talent of a Ted Chiang you'd begin to get a rough approximation of the scale of his talent."
I haven't read any of his stuff yet, but he has a few stories available online and there was a reading of his "His Master's Voice" on a recent edition of the Escape Pod podcast. If you like those, he has a novel, "The Quantum Thief", coming out quite soon (brief review here).
I even like reading epics. I've read a few Icelandic ones and also had a funny sfnal dream about Njal. I was hooked up to a FTL spaceship leaving the solor system. Eventually we detected an Earth-like planet with humans and advanced infrastructure, but when I swooped down to investigate I found Vikings. I met Burnt Njal and asked him about his saga, but he had lost it. He was still writing it and wondered if I could give him a copy. I didn't.
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